A GOOD OR BAD THING???

abre les ojos · Guru

A GOOD OR BAD THING???

Ngwazi · Guru

Abre,

I believe if you were specific as to what constitutes an intelligent commentary in an issue like this you would have had many responses already but as it is,it is a bit vague.Or probably bring up your position in regards to this being either a good or bad thing and let others agree/disagree with you but as it is and knowing you,people think it is a trap!,so come on and give us your intelligent commentary.

-- Edited by Ngwazi at 16:57, 2006-03-28

abre les ojos · Guru

Ngwazi wrote:

Abre,
I believe if you were specific as to what constitutes an intelligent commentary in an issue like this you would have had many responses already but as it is,it is a bit vague.Or probably bring up your position in regards to this being either a good or bad thing and let others agree/disagree with you but as it is and knowing you,people think it is a trap!,so come on and give us your intelligent commentary.-- Edited by Ngwazi at 16:57, 2006-03-28

Okay. You got me.

Still, I think everyone should have an opinion of it irrespective of my position.

Here it is. I can only think that any position that takes us far from WESTERN colonialism to another form of foreign investment that doesn't have political motives and doesn't dictate how we rule ourselves is a good thing. Besides the Chinese don't and can never be inbred racist like the white folks of the last centuries that sold us as slaves, invaded our lands, brought us christianity and still keep us begging for aid.

Yes I think it is the best thing that can happen in Africa. Besides the last time a great deal of investment was targeted at Africa it was preceded by the Cold War position of hustling for political and economical advantage against ideology. Least the Chinese want to make money and nothing else. Either that or we can just sit back and keep begging for ageing rock stars to raise money for Africa.

Black Panther · Senior Member

Its acatch 22 - but weve tried peace - corps for a couple of years. lets try real co-operations. It will mobilise a lot of industries and provide jobs instead of giving aid thats short term- I like the line that Chinca see it as a continent to be invested in , US and Bono as a continent to be saved.... I say dont save us. Invest in us.

abre les ojos · Guru

Black Panther wrote:

Its acatch 22 - but weve tried peace - corps for a couple of years. lets try real co-operations. It will mobilise a lot of industries and provide jobs instead of giving aid thats short term- I like the line that Chinca see it as a continent to be invested in , US and Bono as a continent to be saved.... I say dont save us. Invest in us.

Always great to read contributions from you.

We ought to remember that the reason Europeans came to Africa and colonised it was because they had been fed with the notion that we were somewhat inferior and needed to be saved from our own backwardness and primitiveness. It still happens today. Look at Iraq. It is the same racist notion that the white man is somehow exempt from criticism.

The main reason all other western countries bow to America is that it really is the last bastion of western exceptionalism. Well, that notion is dying fast with the rise of China.

The Chinese for one don't really give a monkeys who rules a country or whether they observe "human rights" that western countries claim to uphold. Their lack of hypocrisy on that level is welcome and I support it. China is developing too and they know what its like to be poor and have no issues with getting their hands dirty, unlike our white friends.

It brings back me back to the discussion we once had about Africa needing investment and not AID. All the AID the UK and America has given to Zambia for instance, just a few years of Chinese investment and jobs have begun to roll in, the mines are opening and even 'though its not smooth sailing yet, it is a better, fresh start.

Ngwazi · Guru

abre les ojos wrote:

Yes I think it is the best thing that can happen in Africa. Besides the last time a great deal of investment was targeted at Africa it was preceded by the Cold War position of hustling for political and economical advantage against ideology. Least the Chinese want to make money and nothing else. Either that or we can just sit back and keep begging for ageing rock stars to raise money for Africa.

Abre,

For once I agree with you on the need for investment rather than aid.Indeed at least we know the Chinese are in there for nothing but money,at least sakutinamiza.However it would be a folly and a great injustice if we ignore their human rights record especially when its apparent that they would become an economic superpower in a few years time,African dictators might try to get away with murder if the Chinese turn a blind eye but they should help in another way by being the "big and caring brother".

But all in all,it is a good thing for Africa.

Date: Mar 28, 2006

Ngwazi's right, a more balanced view is called for. At the end of the day, it's Africa's ability to manage it's economic relationship with China (and the benefits thereof) that will determine how far it benefits (or hurts) the continent. I love the last line in the article; THAT is how we should handle our biz!

abre les ojos · Guru

Ngwazi, one thing is for sure. The notion of human rights as promoted by the West is just a smokescreen. It is a discourse used by Western governments for the benefits of their own population. For instance the US is prepared to do business with "dictators" as long as they are friends of the US. Musharraf is Pakistan, the unelected rulers in Saudi Arabia and all of the Middle East. The one country that has an elected government, Iran is a rogue state because it is an enemy of the US.

What is human rights anyway? Isn't it also the right of populations to live unprovoked by foreign interests. Western countries have no qualms in imposing sanctions on countries that result in the deaths of thousands of children due to lack of vital medication. What about their human rights huh?

Ok I'm diverging from the topic here. My one point here is that trade with China is free from hypocrisy. It's about money. And since it is trade and investement oriented, it benefits the people first and foremost. As opposed to western countries that give cash direct to rules to buy arms from themselves and turn a blind eye to all sorts of abuses.

Every other continent is opening up trade with China and resisting Washington. Look to South America where the US has done so much damamge that anti-US presidents are gaining confidence. While the US is busy moaning about Iraq and so-called "war on Terrorism" the rest of the world is trying to get along. Only the US is going around starting fights.

game · Guru

well,at least now someone is showing interest to invest in africa just when you thought the continent was a broken hoe in a forgotten field,as much i agree with all of you on the motive behind the chinese investiments let me remind you guys that even the white man once came to africa as the redeemer and messiah,what happened next?exploitation of our natural resources,mental slavery,economic turmoil and mass manipulation.

trading with the chinese is a gateway to safe reliance by africans if we equip ourselves enough to protect our investiments,dont repeat history by being naive on the motive behind these chinese investors.this could be their back up plan in their quest for economic dominance.

-- Edited by game at 14:09, 2006-03-29

Dzimveremuntolo · Newbie

game wrote:

let me remind you guys that even the white man once came to africa as the redeemer and messiah,what happened next?exploitation of our natural resources,mental slavery,economic turmoil and mass manipulation. trading with the chinese is a gateway to safe reliance by africans if we equip ourselves enough to protect our investiments,dont repeat history by being naive on the motive behind these chinese investors.this could be their back up plan in their quest for economic dominance

A very true observation! African governments ought to be weary of the economic force that China is becoming. The bottom line is someone should be revisiting the foreign investment policies so that Africa benefits as well. I don't know how many countries in africa have a minimum wage policy which is enforced? How about healthy and safety policy which is enforced? These are a few areas which african governments need to think about and enact legislation so that when the investment-hungry China tries to set up their ventures, the poor african worker benefits.

I believe the chinese people, having seen the importance of equitable pay judging from the their per capita incomes will not be disuaded by the fact african governments have done a bit of homework to protect their workers. They will not only see africa as a a true partner but they will also know that gone are the days when investors were seen as vultures only interested in profit.

Pope · Guru

I doubt if China can be our alternative, we need to be our own,enough with aid,we need african partinership so that we can share.Africa needs to change its political and economical base,only then we can say we have started a journey.The only thing we can learn from them is how to grow fast.They will talk sweet as the west used to do and take all that remained for us.Quote the last sentence of the paper.

With the position africa is,I feel China can be our temporary ally,accepting her with care and observation,even reservations.

-- Edited by Pope at 17:14, 2006-03-29

abre les ojos · Guru

Pope wrote:

I doubt if China can be our alternative, we need to be our own,enough with aid,we need african partinership so that we can share.Africa needs to change its political and economical base,only then we can say we have started a journey.The only thing we can learn from them is how to grow fast.They will talk sweet as the west used to do and take all that remained for us.Quote the last sentence of the paper. With the position africa is,I feel China can be our temporary ally,accepting her with care and observation,even reservations.-- Edited by Pope at 17:14, 2006-03-29

We have little choice. If we want to develop and be self-reliant we have to have investments from sources that might or might not be immediately beneficial. The West has had about 500 years of contact with Africa - Look at the results of that!

Isn't it about time we looked elsewhere. Lets face it there's not enough money and resources for Africa to develop within itself. Not yet at least. Trade with China is to me the next best thing. They are growing and Africa needs to acquire that knowledge too. Co-operation rather than servitude.

game · Guru

abre les ojos wrote:

We have little choice. If we want to develop and be self-reliant we have to have investments from sources that might or might not be immediately beneficial. The West has had about 500 years of contact with Africa - Look at the results of that! Isn't it about time we looked elsewhere. Lets face it there's not enough money and resources for Africa to develop within itself. Not yet at least. Trade with China is to me the next best thing. They are growing and Africa needs to acquire that knowledge too. Co-operation rather than servitude.

we are our only beneficial source of development,what we need is a 50-50 partnership which can implement effective economic measures on both sides not one sided.through out history we have lived in abundance and have created some form of rich culture,first civilization have been built up and flourished on this culture but now everything has perished i wont discuss why it has perished because its obvious.

what am trying to say is with all the experiences of the past,we africans not chinese or americans,we can provide the primary resource apart from natural which can be the key factor to our economic development,we need a sudden outburst of daring,initiative,invention and constructive activity.we all know that ever since africas economic situation has been in a state of permanent crisis,so its not far-fetched to suggest that there is something wrong with its education,we cant flourish economically am sure if we dont devote more energy and resources to organised education.

sepusepu · Senior Member

My fellow country men,

great points have been raised. The point that hit home is the one that we should invest in our knowledge and make sure that we are not just opening our doors without looking at our strategic growth.

I like the fact that the chinese are investing in Africa but what worries me is when these investments are wholly owned by them. I would prefer having joint ventures or somekind of partnership with a local firm or govt. In india or China it was impossible to have a 100% foreign owned company until they got to a point where they had developed their local industry. It might still be.

We have to be sceptical when we enter into these deals. From the word go lets make sure they know that we are partners. Our universities need to produce analytical thinkers.

Otherwise i welcome the chinese. I like their KUNG-FU movies anyway!

Pope · Guru

Brothers and ssister,do you remember how Britain used us,then America.Did they use the same methods,ok.Here we have another giant trying to use us as a stepping stone.Search me.

NYASALAND · Senior Member

Pope wrote:

Brothers and ssister,do you remember how Britain used us,then America.Did they use the same methods,ok.Here we have another giant trying to use us as a stepping stone.Search me.

You are rightly searched through Pope. The question about China's economy is no longer what it will do to China but what it will do to the rest of the world especially Africa in this instance. It may invigorate the African economy or destabilize it. Nobody knows for sure . We don't know. Until recently, China's movement away from a Stalinist and backward society was mainly a story about what kind of country it might become and what political role it would play in the world. Now China's size and relentless economic growth have combined to create a global Goliath. It's having huge and barely anticipated economic spillover effects elsewhere and no doubt Africa is their fisrt victim again.

All we know for certain is that we really don't know. Few economists fully trust the official Chinas statistics, which they suspect suffer from omissions and periodic political tampering. With a country as big as China undergoing so much dramatic change>moving from a "command and control" economy to a market system, the chances that anyone has a complete picture of what's going on are slim or nonexistent. In a smaller country like Malawi, our ignorance wouldn't matter much. But in China, it's slightly terrifying.There is a game perhaps the westerners might be playing:Take it from this angle , of course today , China may be flooding markets but how much profit does it receive from such exports? How much Value Added does the Chinese benefit from it in reality? Doesn’t China experience a lions share going the opposite side;>>>the western corporations and other brand companies sourcing producats from them? Does surely Chinas GDP translate to high income if you try to underline it? I understand that in manufacturing of one pair of USAs Timberlands sold from more than $100, Chinese workers receive less than $0.30.What does this mean then? China is home to so many lowly paid migrants from country side. Its all about cheap labour , and this is a story that is repeated and reported in newspapers in many parts of the world almost everyday. Still, it may come as a surprise , then to learn that Chinas trade miracle has done almost nothing to increase employment in the country. From this respect I feel that Africa shouldnt expect much from them. Its just a matter of time before Africa gets exploited badly again.I think what we are witnessing here is the manifestation that Free Trade is surely designed to work for big business countries out there but still remains a failure for small-time countries.The Less Developed Countries shall continue to suffer from Free Trade policies and no body seem to care .

Pope · Guru

NYASALAND wrote:

Nobody knows for sure . We don't know. Until recently, China's movement away from a Stalinist and backward society was mainly a story about what kind of country it might become and what political role it would play in the world. Few economists fully trust the official Chinas statistics, which they suspect suffer from omissions and periodic political tampering. How much Value Added does the Chinese benefit from it in reality? Doesn’t China experience a lions share going the opposite side;>>> Does surely Chinas GDP translate to high income if you try to underline it? I understand that in manufacturing of one pair of USAs Timberlands sold from more than $100, Chinese workers receive less than $0.30.What does this mean then? China is home to so many lowly paid migrants from country side. Its all about cheap labour ,

Who have eyes should read

abre les ojos · Guru

Nyasaland makes quite a few profound points.

From my point of view however I can stress that the world today is not the same as it was pre-colonialism. Globalization, communication, travel, resources, ethics, trade are all different. So are international affairs and cooperation. So simply stating that China would revert to the same theme that British imperialism was based on is quite unfounded.

It's also wrong to say that China was a Stalinist, backward society. The Chinese civilisation is the 3rd oldest in the world. They invented paper, gunpowder and so many other things. They have been trading and inventing technology since time.

The development happening in China is not a move to a market economy per se; as western economists would like us believe. What is happening is s lot more dramatic than that. It doesn't even have a name yet. Its part experimental, part ideological, part practical textbook.

Whatever the case, this century is the Asian century. The sooner the west begins to accomodate this change the easier the transition would be.

Historically such shifts are preceeded by war. Let's hope the present time that doesn't happen. Knowing America's history that's not likely.

bnk444 · Veteran Member

Well i believe there are two sides of the coin that needs to be tackled when coming to a conclusion as to whether the chinese investment in africa is good or a bad thing.

I like the way the writer has balanced up his story and it shows he did a good research on the facts raised .

Now lets look at the good side ,these guys seem to be helping countries where they are investing quite alot and are doing so by targeting the investment gap that is in africa ,by this i mean that most countries are not getting the required assistance from the bretton wood institution(IMF),world bank and other donors because of human rights issue,bad governance and corruption so in most cases the gap created is mostly filled by these chinese without hesitation .

In helping these countries so long as the investment has filtered through to the common man on the ground irrespective of the situation of the government one would be compelled to agree that the chinese are worth a partner in development ,on the second note they do not demand condition for the assistance and that also goes a long way in helping ur economies just as other partners does, so they have dangled a bit carrot on our nose.

On the other hand in these investments the chinese are after returns and one has to be careful to assess whether the initial investment is going to continue or is it entry strategy ?Low wages that people receive ,are we comfortable enough with them?What conditions have we offered these guys interms of repatration profits on their investment?Finally will they improve the trade balance ? or are they obtaining raw materials and final processing is done in their country so in the end the final products ends up being sold to us?

I think on the proper view point africa stand to benefit with their presence, for africa to grow it needs so much investment so if these guys are ready to give us that opportunity then why not jump on it.Low incomes offered to employees are far much better than none at all.

Abre big up it is an interesting subject.

Black Panther · Senior Member

One of the major benefits of Chinese trade is that it will make us less reliant on the West. Hence , this might tforce the west to give us better trade deals becasue they will be afriad that we will take our raw matrerials elswhere. Also, the threat of China becoming powerful and China influence will deter the West from making policies toward us that will drive us to trade with China. The whole cold war thing pitted the West agains Russia in efforts to have influence over Africa - the CIA supplied guns to dictators etc...b/c they were afraid of Russias supporting certain regime...and the big thing of course is the fight against the socialist ideology, the west knows that African countires have a high chnce of accepting socialism (not communism) but the Nyerere type system fo govt. So if China serves as an example of a stong socialist country...the west will feel the pain if China comes to africa ... pure simple competetion is good...I say bring it on!