Saddam not afraid to die

skillzmanifest · Senior Member

Saddam not afraid to die

abre les ojos · Guru

You see I'm actually on his side. For the simple reason that no one gave the US the divine right to invade a country, cause the death of somewhere in the region of 100,000 people. Mostly innocent people - even use chemical weapons - arrest their leader and put in on show trial. If anything, GW Bush and Blair should be the ones on trial here.

Even when you see the charges. They've picked the charges that they think would stick. And if this was put through to the International criminal court chances are it would be thrown out. I mean how far are they with Milosevic (sic).

They could have charged Saddam with the massacre in Haladja (sic) but they couldn't seeing that the weapons were supplied by the US for that purpose. Don't forget Saddam is a lawyer - or went to law school and is not pushover. In fact, he's even more popular in his own country than Bush is in America - forget about what the western press claim.

The truth is the insurgency in Iraq IS going to win. You know why? because they ARE there forever. It's they're country and they can fight on till eternity. Look at Palestine. The difference is that they are armed and dangerous - mostly veterans of the Iran/Iraq war and have more skill and determination than all the foreign forces put together. It takes a whole village to organise an insurgency.

As for Saddam. Well, the move would be to turn it into a farce - which is already starting now. And drag it on for ages - till the Americans leave like they did Vietnam. At that time Saddam would probably have died of a a stroke or heart attack.

skillzmanifest · Senior Member

interesting.You mentioned the insurgence are going to win the war.On what basis would you measure the victory? body counts, millitary suporiority, maintaining their cause...

abre les ojos · Guru

skillzmanifest wrote:

interesting.You mentioned the insurgence are going to win the war.On what basis would you measure the victory? body counts, millitary suporiority, maintaining their cause...

But the insurgency ARE winning. And thy WOULD succeed in driving out the foreign occupiers. You have to see it from a historical perspective. Occupations ALWAYS fail. America doesn't have the political will to stay indefinitely. But the Insurgency or rather "freedom fighters" would be there forever. It's their country and you can't pacify people who have had their families killed by US bombs.

It's Vietnam all again. Look out for a re-released 1970s documentary "Hearts and Minds". You'll see quite a lot of de ja vu..

skillzmanifest · Senior Member

perhaps. But I think through the propaganda, government reform, and these CIA-oriented covert operations, US foriegn interests will still be fullfilled. You're right though; the US doesn't have a political will to keep troops in Iraq. which is why they train the Iraqis themselves. So that the iraqis will be able to handle the insurgencies themselves. Millitarily, the US are winning. As long as Iraq remains a resort to satisfy the demand for cheap oil, America wins.

once the elections are successfully carried out, there will be more of a social reform in concurrence with democracy and capitalism. And that would go along way in fighting religious ideologies and anti-american sentiments. They are already paying for the media.

-- Edited by skillzmanifest at 23:55, 2005-12-14

abre les ojos · Guru

You really don't know history...

Firstly America won every battle in Vietnam, but lost the war. They had a process they called Vietnamization (to train Vietnamese to figh or rather to die instead of them) but you should understand that the majority of Iraqis won't kill their brothers on behalf of Americans.

Secondly, it takes a whole town to organize an insurgency. And no matter what western propaganda calls them, they are Iraqis fighting invaders. You should read about the French in Algeria to get a better picture.

I mean foreigners can't even walk unguarded by the military in Iraq. It's even too dangerous for soldiers, let alone anybody. And what difference is an election to a country at war? The elections are a smokescreen and would be forgotten by next week because the results would not be as the US predicted.

America would be there for a while and the insugency indefinitetly. The only solution, and I mean ONLY solution is for the US to leave, involve Iran and maybe Syria to broker a truce between the factions, and cut their loses. Either that or the insurgency would only get stronger and stronger and braver.

skillzmanifest · Senior Member

The social dimension of this war is being fought in various ways.As I mentioned in the latter , one step that the US has employed is the spread of propaganda and media control. When I mentioned that the US were training Iraqi's to fight the insurgence, I was not refering to the majority. I was talking about the iraqi soldiers. And there is no question that they are fighting alongside the US. And technically speaking, the country is not at war, it is these small groups that are fighting.

And Iraq is no Nam! get out of here!

abre les ojos · Guru

No iraq is no Nam, it's worse. I'll explain.

America's involvement in Nam was an ideological one. They were prepared to sacrifice their citizens to curb SouthEast asian nationalism - well, they called it communism. That didn't work simply because the native people didn't exactly know why they were foreign people in their country killing their kids. It made soldiers of everyone. Men, women and even children. Farmers in little straw hats and AK-47s. Apart from the fact that the US used extremely horrible methods, and won ALL the battles. They lost the war even after they trained several thousand Vietnamese to fight.

Iraq has the attention of the world. Plus it is in a region of economic significance. The difference is that today, imperialism cannot work as it did in the 18th century. We are aware of it now. American propaganda works for America and not with Iraqis of Arabs - There's Aljazeera (you ought to see their website if you want to know what the man on the street REALLY thinks. Noot CNN or BBC or God forbid, FOX News.

Let's not forget the Al-qaeda effect of religious zealotry. These people are not only fighting on a nationalism basis but a religious one. Their motivation is a lot stronger than America's and they are THERE. It's their home. They are educated, media savvy, funded by Iran, Syria, Saudi, Yemen, Egypt etc. And no amount of propaganda would change that.

Believing that you can force an election under occupation of a people who you have killed their families and broken their homes and tourtured their people - and they would forgive you and embrace your systm of government is folly, racists and ONLY Bush can come up with rubbish like that. Well, specifically Cheney.

Mark my prophetic words. As this war is about contracts and oil and the Iraqis know that - after the results of this (surprisingly played down) false election, the real chaos will begin...

The Americans would have to do another round of propaganda for their citizens to be mislead with...

This war doen't matter whether the US is willing to "stay the course". The people would fight to drive them out anyway.