Read This!

abre les ojos · Guru

Read This!

President · Veteran Member

I know mandela he made lots of headlines here he is a good doctor and its good that he is contemplating to come back thats good news for Malawi.We realy need Dictors.

Pope · Guru

The same adage mtchire mdalaka njoka

skillzmanifest · Senior Member

sell outs!

abre les ojos · Guru

skillzmanifest wrote:

sell outs!

This from someone who probably lives in US...

Philosophically, there's no such thing as patriotism. Or all that bollocks about self-sacrifice for the sake of one's country. Hypocrisy. Funny how those who preach patriotism always do it just as they are about to send their own people to war to sacrifice "their" lives. Or by those who have already made it by virtue of their status. A hard working guy like Mandela, trying to make a living. After all those years of studying hard. The hours, sleepless nights etc. Of course he'll want to be rewarded for his hardwork! If Malawi can't afford to pay him, he SHOULD go where his skills are rewarded. Simple as that. Philanthropy is a great virtue but one has to take care of hiself first. How do you think we've made it through millions of years? By being selfish that's how.

game · Guru

abre

at the end of the day life is about decisions,in mandela's case it dont matter whether he goes back or not when he was studying hard he knew exactly what he wanted and nobody is gonna change it for him,there are so many malawians abroad learned and intelligent,powerful in their communities they cant go back for millions of reasons.

the same reasons people left malawi for better education,better life,is the same reason they cant return,at the end of the day its the decisions you make in life that will help you benefit.you can never forget where you come from but where you are heading is a mystery,a gift and most of all the reason for any foundation.if mandela goes to malawi now he will be the only expertriate in his field and this triggers jealous and envy,projecting to his downfall,wasting all the years of hard work.

in malawi right now there are so many learned men and women who returned because of stupid patriotism and are living in miserable circumstances and environment,they are being tossed around by the politictians without any educational background.you have to ask yourself questions whether its good to return to your motherland and be a subject to political torture when you can stay in the UK and live a confortable life where people appreciate your skills.

Nali · Member

Malawi is totally different to other countries malawi's biggest problem is competition is not encouraged, envy, jealousy, low salaries, poverty etc. The reasons why one leaves the country is for better education, better life etc.

As good as life is in foreign countries, I think most of the people would give this all up and go back home if the working conditions were improved. No matter where you are its not the same as being in your own country, around your relatives.

Its really sad that poor ordinary malawians are paying hard for this. Malawi educate doctors and nurses and these skilled workers later lend their services to other countries. I am shoked to learn that they are more malawian doctors in Manchester as in the whole of Malawi itself. The west is really not helping our situation. They say they want to remove poverty but how are they helping us if they are stealing our skilled workers who can make a difference in our countries. We all know that Doctors and nurses are in huge demand in the west because they themselves dont have enough Doctors and nurses. How can Malawi compete with these countries, with the salaries they offer. Something must be done about this. The west is robbing us of our own skilled workers. One cant blame people for leaving their countries for a better life. The difference between rich countries and poor countries is so big that Europe will continue getting a lot of immigrants from Africa. Unfortunately only the doctors, nurses, Engineers seems to be welcomed and the not so educated ones are the ones we see on Tv on the coast of Spain trying to get to Europe. If they rob us of our skilled workers people who can make adifference in our countries then they will continue getting alot of immigrants from Africa.

abre les ojos · Guru

No I think you are wrong on several counts. It isn't just skilled labour that is welcomed in Europe. Unskilled labour is actually more in need. Unskilled cheap labour. I mean if you live in any big city in Europe who do you see cleaning the streets, picking garbage, looking after the elderly, waiters - need I go on? It's cheap. Ask these Africans and you'll find that most of them are educated - with degrees. But since £s and $s exchange for a lot back home they don't mind doing it as long as the government look the other way at their immigration status. Forget what you see on TV.

skillzmanifest · Senior Member

Alot of people leave Malawi for self interests sake. What ever those reason maybe, Malawi, one way or the other looses out. This mass emigration is, in small part, what accounts for Malawi's inadequacy in maintaing a sustainable labor force ie braindrain. Lets just call a spade a spade.

-- Edited by skillzmanifest at 00:39, 2005-11-22

abre les ojos · Guru

skillzmanifest wrote:

Alot of people leave Malawi for self interests sake. What ever those reason maybe, Malawi, one way or the other looses out. This mass emigration is, in small part, what accounts for Malawi's inadequacy in maintaing a sustainable labor force ie braindrain. Lets just call a spade a spade. -- Edited by skillzmanifest at 00:39, 2005-11-22

Well in that case will you rather return to Malawi, with your kids (if you have any), to look for a job and probably live in some location, with inadequate healthcare, no cinema, shopping malls, amusement parks, trains that run on time, public transport? With disease and hunger all aorund you? Stop me please because this list is endless...

Because this forum is made up of a majority of middle-class Malawians we can wax lyrical about going back to do something about our country - it makes us sound important, profound - but if you think that you are ready to give your life up abroad to return to Malawi then leave! I can tell you that over 75% of Malawians would leave Malawi if they could. Let's face it, our country IS a dump! And patriotism aside, we are better off abroad. Period!

Nali · Member

Abre wrote

No I think you are wrong on several counts. It isn't just skilled labour that is welcomed in Europe. Unskilled labour is actually more in need. Unskilled cheap labour. I mean if you live in any big city in Europe who do you see cleaning the streets, picking garbage, looking after the elderly, waiters - need I go on? It's cheap. Ask these Africans and you'll find that most of them are educated - with degrees.

Yes most of them are educated people who could have made a difference in their countries. I aways think that immigrants offer alot for country, they work hard they bring with them skills that a country needs. They are survivors, ready to take any job that comes their way. Most dont belong to any labour union. All these qualities makes them the sort after workers. They are exploited by companies and paid lower wages.

you then wrote

But since £s and $s exchange for a lot back home they don't mind doing it as long as the government look the other way at their immigration status. Forget what you see on TV.

Immigrants most of them dont have proper documents, they dont belong to any labour union. They are athreat to the locals.  Countries like Germany, France at the moment have a lot of high unemployment rate and yet most of these odd jobs are filled by immigrants. Alot of people in these countries are living on social welfare. Locals and immigrants have exploited the system.

I have to say though that the European governments are not as you wrote keeping ablind eye to this problem. Yes they probably do benifit from cheap labour but I think that their hands are tied. Something to do with democracy and human rights. Once one is allowed in the country, one can exploit the system and find away to stay.  It also cost them a lot of money deporting immigrants.

I cant forget about what is happening on the coast of Spain because this is one way Europe is trying to keep Africans out of their continent by tough immigration control. Because once these people get in the country, then it will be hard and costly for the authorities to get rid them.

abre les ojos · Guru

Nali, I work for the British government. I previously worked for the immigration department and I know the truth about it. They have an idea of the amount of people that work without papers. But industry relies on cheap labour. without it all the jobs would be outsourced to China or India. even 'though we have a "labour" government here, Margaret Thatcher's government destroyed the unions eons ago, so industry takes advantage of the gap.

It has always been like that in Europe. Post WWII the british needed labour from the west Indies and India to fill the labour gap. Now it is immigrants from eastern Europe and nurses from Africa and care workers to look after the elderly.

Of course they preach all that rhetoric about putting curbs on immigration - to appease the right-wing, anti-immigration wings, but they won't do anything drastic about it because industry would collapse.

This has nothing to do with human rigths or democracy. It is about money - as long as it translates into CA$H it would happen.

Nali · Member

abre les ojos wrote:

It has always been like that in Europe. Post WWII the british needed labour from the west Indies and India to fill the labour gap. Now it is immigrants from eastern Europe and nurses from Africa and care workers to look after the elderly.

Yes it has always been like this, i know that in Germany in the 70s looked for labour from the turkish people. But dont you think that those good days in Europe where there were plenty of jobs are over. I know for a fact that in countries like Germany and France jobs are getting scarce. Thanxs to companies moving to the new EU countries( former soviet countries that have joined the European union). Immigrants who came into the country are not guaranteed to find jobs. Even without jobs they still find a way to remain and take advantange of the social welfare.

One must not lose sight and blame it all on the West. I know why I left and it is mostly corruption, poor working conditions, few career opportunities, low incomes, security, to pursue a higher education and Malawians attitude. It will be wrong of me to pretend to being patriotism when my heart is no longer in this country. I have found a new home where my skills are appreciated and encouraged to go for my dreams. Will I ever return and the answer to that is probably no. I will never feel at home in Malawi, I will be lost in this country. It is harder to realize that all I have from this country are those good childhood memories that will never go away they will stay in my mind for ever and a language. All I can do is use the opportunity that I have that takes me to many countries and try to share my experience and let other people know how other developing countries are overcoming poverty to make their citizens lives better.

abre les ojos · Guru

So what are you saying then.... You seem to be reflecting my point.

game · Guru

people

when the arguement reaches this point we close it and go home because you all seem to run out of ideas,probably the worst arguement i had to come across on this forum,we all know that cheap labour strengthens every countries economy especially the UK,there is always a production growth in cheap labour because of the cut down in expenses.illegal immigrants who pay tax have their own tax code thats why they keep a blind eye when illegal immigration cases rise.

Nali · Member

Abre

What I am trying to say is that the west is partly to blame for the exodus of intellectuals and some blue collar workers from Africa to Europe. But if one looks at the root of the problem why people leave their countries especially if you look at your own case why you left its mainly because of the situations in our countries. Thats why I wrote about my own reasons for leaving.

Game I dont argue with someone for the sake of argument. When Abre wrote that he has worked for the UK immigration and knows what is happening, then who am I to argue with an expert who has inside information. I agree with Abre when he said that Europe has always needed cheap labour. But the situation in Europe has changed. The economy in Europe is not as it was before ( acouple of years ago) they have alot of unemployment. Wouldnt it be right to say that the reason why it is getting harder for people to get to Europe is because they no longer need blue collar immigrant workers because with high unemployment they are trying to allocate these jobs to their citizens who are unemployed, on social welfare costing the government alot of money.

All I can say is what I as an immigrant experienced and saw in Europe and that is immigration is getting out of hand, look at France for example. Whats happening in France will probably happen in Germany with the turkish people. When you talk about immigration its not just about cheap labour, but what happens to the immigrants and their families, how do they integrate. In so many ways Europe has failed in trying to get immigrants to intregrate, now it sees the results of immigration. When this continues they will get tougher and stricter on immigration. The intellectuals will always be welcomed but the blue collar workers are not going to be welcomed.

abre les ojos · Guru

Nali,

Though I believe the west is in part to blame, I disagree on how. Firstly, success. The west has better standards of living. But these living standards rely highly on the exploitation of cheap labour both at home and abroad not to mention trade exploitation - that's a different topic. So at the end of the day it leaves third world countries worse off hence the exodus. Humans will - and always have, migrated to better themselves - boy, even bacteria do it. The result would consequently be one coutry benefiting while another gets worse off.

I personally don't owe Malawi anything. I don't owe anyone anything. My skills are there to serve me and my future family, wherever I live. If I got a better offer in Malawi, nothing would stop me from leaving. But if that never happens - which is the more likely scenario - I'd rather be where my children can have a better life.