For LadyB

abre les ojos · Guru

For LadyB

Lady B · Senior Member

abre les ojos wrote:

Yes, before you think otherwise I do enjoy our talks about religion and the existence of God and the supernatural. I know you all find it somewhat odd or shocking that I can profess atheism so loudly (and so eloquently) without a shread of convincing from you religious folk. Well, although I used to believe in God - was even a born-again christian at one point (and yes it made me quite happy). Then my enquiring mind started working overtime. I began to ask questions that my education was bringing up. Scientific questions - that my religion seemed to even deny existed, but I knew were fact. One thing was certain to me. What I thought I knew or defined as my "soul" or "spirit" was indeed nothing but self-awareness. A certain moment of clarity hit me. If the only thing about me, the reality of my being is the fact that I think, I feel, then there is no need for God. There is no God. It was a truly liberating feeling knowing that the only thing I owed myself was not to praise or worship a god but to live my life by my own terms. Not the terms of religion but by my own. It takes courage to reject all your childhood longings and beliefs, but it sure is liberating. Human compassion states that we love, we care, we respect each other. We need to in order to evolve

Abre Sweets i hear you loud and clear , you could find thousands of ideas against the existing of The God, simply because all these ideas generates of one idea of NOT believing the existing of God , just like riddles in a water surface generated from a touch (in this analogy) the ideas will expand and become so distant from the origin that you will start to believing in the validity of these that these ideas in themselves, like the idea of having a creation so heavy that the God can't lift it ..., but -as we know- they will fade away sooner or later in the end and the end (the day of judgment) is near. There are so many examples is being "constructed" to disprove the existing of the God, unfortunately for the unbelievers, and fortunately for the believers: i ask you this ?

just because you cant see God then he doesn't exist, we know that we can't see radio waves or atoms yet they exists!,but here is the ULTIMATE RULE: But if you think about it Science and the True Religion agree what i mean is Think objectively through science and you will arrive that there is a creator of all things God

Why?: Because if a creator of all things exists then the universe is built following some principles of his chosen, That's from the creator's side
From our side science is simply the facts that describes the underlying principles of the universe (or ourselves..etc)

Then if there is a true religion (sent by the creator) then in it's whole and sums should agree with the scientific facts, because this is the creators creation, in fact the religion should describe facts that yet to be discovered by science.

So, you see it's your choice to belive or not (go to heaven or hell), but don't try to convince yourself and worse others that A CREATOR doesn't exist to lift the burden of worship and belive of your shoulders.

In in way, the wise will deal with this mathematically & logically (to win in the end with good odds):
If a creator doesn't exists, then no problem, but what if a creator does exists ( you at least don't have a solid fact disproving this, even if there is a 1/100000000000 chance of his existence, still a chance!) what will be your position then, what will you say to him!

THE WISE SHOULD COVER ALL HIS GROUNDS AND NOT LOOSE, we practice this simple principle in daily life in everything, yet it's hard when it comes to the existence of the creator!!!!!

The simple fact is that God exists and he sent lots of messengers to show his existence, and simply asked you to thank him (worship) for that he created you (in the first place). This is our OBLIGATION, and we are totally responsible for our choices.

*Every time scientists discover something, they find it already mentioned in the Holy Quran from the atom, uniqueness of the finger print, ..., to the big bang .. and much more, just look around in the Internet to find these*

We will never comprehend the idea of a creator until we die, because we are wrapped within our own dimensions, only after death God will give us (the believers in heaven, you don't want to miss that unbelievers) the ability to see him like we see the full moon in a crisp clear night.

Science dont explain coincidence. At best it can tell you the probability of that event and it can be very improbable, although it happened.

Science explain the mechanics that goes on in the event,such as the unseen cause and effect chain, and such as how the weather changed and the rain fell, but does not say why the fire happens there and then.

*Kiss*

abre les ojos · Guru

Well I have to reply your post bit by bit.

"Science desn't explain coincidences". It doesn't need to. Simply because there really isn't anything like coincidences. As a world where situaltions and events are explicitly connected, where every action produces a counter-action or events are linked by the sheer logical sequences; some of these events are bound to colide. Have you ever heard of six degrees of seperation? The sheer random chaos of happenings on earth and the unexplainble chaos it generates; it's pretty much a given that any events that collide explicitly i.e. coincidences would create a "eureka" moment. Consequently, coincidences are stand out moments of clarity because they are surrounded by normal chaotic events.

About Judgement and the belief that one day a God would pass judgement on people for their vices and virtues is an idea that really took form during the occupation of Judea by Rome. You can compare it with Iraq today, where there is an enourmous revival or religious fervour and movements that take it on themselves to punish detractors. It was the same in Judea then. But unfortunately, Judaism doesn't even believe in a afterlife, that was Paul (or Saul) that brought about the idea to confound the belief that Jesus rose from the death. It is a simple ideological shift create for a particular purpose.

You have to realise one thing. Religion WAS created over years of trial and error. Omission, historical account, myth and of course - wishful thinking. It IS ideological. That's what it is. And if you did a study on ideology you'll understand what I mean.

So we can pontificate all we want about Jesus and religion but it is a programme. An idea. A learnt experience. Indoctrinating, and utterley convincing to the audience. The power of belief is astounding to say the least. And God IS a belief. Radio waces can be measured with equipment. You hear the radio and watch TV; the effects of it. They are physically manifest. God has no such measurable effect apart from a "feeling" of security and "safety" that comes from belief. So it really is in ones head or heart. The phisical effects are of a personal experience tantamount to delusion. Since they are illogical by their very nature. The fact that they cannot be proved.

The story of Jesus is profoundly moving but that is exactly why it is universal. The fact that one has to acknowledge that they are small, sinners, wrongdoers creates an inferiority complex. Opens one up to the elements of pain and loss etc. So when the narrative tells that you need to accept Jesus as the solution to your pain and emptiness by virtue of HIS pain and suffering for YOUR sins, creates the misdirection of emotion to the supernatural (they say he's everywhere and sees everything) So we can tap into this immortal image. The psychological process completes itself by deluding the recipient that he now deserves to be part of the group. It is the best form of brainwashing and the very workings of any form of propaganda (that's what religion is really).

It is convincing to those who are vulnerable. Probably due to suffering, trauma, poverty or some other circumstance that cannot be explained logially or otherwise. It is comforting to to have faith without knowledge or proof since the harsh realities of life are shielded from one by the very statement that it is all "God's will".

Then of course there are those charlatans that claim divine inspiration (preachers, pastors, bishops). Which I think is the epitome of arrogance and conceit. Who peddle this idea to congregations that give their money to finance more of it. To say that they're are sent by God or see Jesus is not only criminal but frightenigly illogical. I always say that one must actually be foolish to go to church and give up their intellect for the moments it takes to give their money to this enterprise.

With all the evidence out there that christianity is actually man made people (some intelligent) still choose believe it?

Lady B · Senior Member

Ok Abre let me ask you something since you say that there is no higher power out there and we al all masters of our own universe answer me this If I we the master of our own personal universe, why do things happen to us that we don't want? Why do we fail?

Abre You can't disprove something that hasn't been proven to begin.you speak as if you have powerful proof that god does not exist. so i ask you. does god not exist? can you answer that? do u have faith that god does NOT exist?

so, one more time, what is the evidence that god does not exist? if you can't come up with the proof, that is fine, no one will blame you.
so, just reply with the evidence you or anyone else has and then we'll go from there.
one more thing, look up in your dictionary and thesaurus and look up the meaning of "agnostic" and "athiest". how can you believe in nothing when you believe in something? HaHa, see, you have faith that you believe in something and nothing. what a contradiction that is.

*Kiss*

abre les ojos · Guru

Let me start by showing the flaw in your question.

It is wrong to assume that I have "faith" that God doesn't exist. I don't believe in faith. So my scepticism comes from a lack of belief that comes from insufficient evidence. Do I see God? NO. Do I feel God? NO. Do I sense God anyway at all? No. Are the effects of God manifest in anyway at all that I can percieve? No. So my logical conclusion is initially scepticism. Add that to my knowledge of religion and how people transfer their lack of knowledge and fear of the unknown into a form of narrative called religion - the story is complete. The bogus practices of religions and their self-serving practices - plus the astounding myths and lies, come together to fuel my "born-again" atheism.

Why do bad things happen to people? It shows how conceited humans are. How selfish we really are? Thinking that right and wrong is personal. That theres is some external reason why failure misery are around us. Maybe that's why we seek easy answers; religion, that comfort us. That makes us "feel" better. Like blame it on God or the Devil. Everyone else but ourselves and life.

Misery and pain etc are perecptual. The only difference is that we with our human intelligence translate things and try to give explanations for them. Mostly explanations that suit with our predisposed prejudices. Like the way Islamists are saying Katrina is a punishment of America by God and the like - not just a bloody hurricane. Wind. Strong wind, that's all it is.

We, on this planet are pretty insignificant as far as life is concerned. The earth is unforgiving and life is fleeting. One day you're here the other you're gone! Sometimes painfully, sometimes horribly. Sometimes, the fault of others. It's no wonder we strive to comfort ourselves by creating elaborate stories like God, judgement day, Jesus, heaven and hell. It reassures us and puts it in the back if mind. Helps us live and forget or at least postpone the fear of death. It is a sort of denial, yes. But it helps. I can undestand why we've evolved to be prone to superstition.

abre les ojos · Guru

The total amount of suffering per year in the natural world is beyond all decent contemplation. During the minute that it takes me to compose this sentence, thousands of animals are being eaten alive, many others are running for their lives, whimpering with fear, others are slowly being devoured from within by rasping parasites, thousands of all kinds are dying of starvation, thirst, and disease. It must be so. If there ever is a time of plenty, this very fact will automatically lead to an increase in the population until the natural state of starvation and misery is restored.

In a universe of electrons and selfish genes, blind physical forces and genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won't find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice. Quoting Darwin: The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but pitiless indifference.

Faith is the great cop-out, the great excuse to evade the need to think and evaluate evidence. Faith is belief in spite of, even perhaps because of, the lack of evidence.