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Lady B


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Homosexuality,"Asexuality& Heterosexuality.
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No need to bite my head off with this topic , lets discuss this .Apart from the religious reasons that state why she shouldn't conduct thses acts, why do we REALLY not participate in them. WHy do we see it as disgusting and shun others who are homosexual?. Why is there a wrong or right thing to do when it concerns sexuality.?
If animals can do it, why can't we. Is there a biological rule that states that male should be with female?.

please people lets talk and not fight

*Kiss*

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abre les ojos


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It would be hard if not impossible to discuss this topic without the religious angle since it is the reason why we have grown to see sexuality/sex as a moral issue.


For a total atheist like myself, sex has nothing to do with morality. It is the greatest form of aesthetics that humans can partake in. The pleasure can be boundless as we as adults are aware. To me, there is no right or wrong, only preference. I like women because they are soft, they have breasts and are smooth and supple (well most of them). Other men prefare men for the opposite reasons. I can't speak for women...


Now when you throw religious morality in the mix, you start to hear "God doesn't want this, God created Adam and Eve and all that rubbish. Well, that creates guilt. And guilt is the worse thing that you can do where pleasure is concerned.



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Lady B


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Abre i hear you but rememeber One's perception of reality does not alter reality. A friend of mine said that it's biologically wrong , and i have been thinking that Does that mean mean that it violates some kind of "natural law"? If something is against the laws of nature thaen it cannot exist, since all things come from natural processes.


and my other question is Why is it wrong for everyone, including kids, to walk around naked. In some societies everyone is naked, and there is no problem, no sexual tension, nothing. Because nudity has no mystique there. In a society where everyone is clothed, then of course nudity will be seen as different, and depending on your views, either exciting or dangerous.


Now to masturbation. WHy is it seen as low , desperate and disgusting?. In some urban countries, it reduces the spread of STD's.


*Kiss*



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You have totally answered your own question. Yes, one's perception of reality doesn't alter it. Faith doesn't prove or change anything. Thanks to centuries of religious inspired "reality" sex and masturbation has been seen as sinful or unclean.


Ask your friend, what LAWS this violates. Who wrote these laws and where are they written. The same argument can say that flying in planes and cars violates natural laws since we were not meant to do them naturally.


There really are NO natural laws and certainly not in respect to sex.



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Paudah_Paf


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Well if we must look at nature (and strictly) homosexuality and masturbation would be ruled out simply because they preclude procreation and hence would lead to the extinction of the species.

But what are we saying here? I consider masturbation healthy (yeah yeah I know, WANKER). And we can look at that in two senses, it keeps my goolies in good working order by keeping the good ol' sperm factory ticking AND it keeps me away from casual need-driven sex or pay-as-you-go sex.
I'd get worried if I started preferring a wank to the actual thing (a-la Bruce Willis & Demi Moore) but until then, heck, it sure beats trusting in condoms!

As for homosexuality I've been led to understand that some gay people are just born that way coz of a mixup in their genetic makeup. Then there are those who simply prefer it and there are whole schools of thought about the possible causes, childhood abuse? exposure? mental imbalance? I'm not qualified to even comment.
I take the same road though, it takes all sorts to make a world and so long as we don't enter a new-world order where heterosexuality is outlawed and babies are made on petri-dishes or grown in tanks, well leave them be! Oh yeah, s'long as they do not try to subvert heterosexuals into the 'joys'... *shudder*... of homosexuality.
Live and let live.

I'm a reformed homophobic principally because of open-minded discussions with my chic and others. Fine, I don't like it but I do try (VERY hard mind you) to understand it and not to hate them.
Besides, being a guy, I get thrilled watching two chics going at it every now and then when I see it on the screen. Heh heh...

You were right to leave religion out of it Lady B, but in reality you can't.
We have it inculcated into us from the word go and it's as much a part of us as our minds.
Culture too. Homosexuality is taboo, Masturbation is frowned upon but acceptable where discretion rules here in Africa.

It's an iterative loop in the end, a discussion with no end in sight.

So I become selfish and just thank God that I belong to the majority. I like women and I Love my woman. I don't have same-sex inclinations and I wank within limits, don't even think about it when I have my woman near. Plus it keeps me celibate when she's away.

How about you?


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Viwemevilikunthazi
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I'm sorry but I really coudn't make up your point. Your writing style was a little to erm, eccentric for me.


Your point that homosexuality and masturbation would "preclude extinction of the species" is unfounded and had no scientific rationale whatsoever. You said you masturbate within limits too (?). As humans we CAN have sex for PLEASURE only. Procreation isn't the reason for having sex. So pleasure can be had on any level, depending on your taste.


And your point about homosexuality being taboo because of culture. Well, culture can be wrong too. In time cultural practices evolve, change or become benign. Like female circumcision of the killing of twins.


I think it is hypocritical that you like watching two chicks "at it" but think that homosexuality is unnatural. Isn't it the same thing????



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Lady B


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I wonder why just sex in general is unacceptable in society.  But sex is supposed to be good. It's even built into us to be pleasurable. I don't get that. 


paudah Paf wow!! what a name,  u  have to realise that homesexuallty and sex for some reason is mainly seen as taboo in Judeo-Christian societies, as well as those culturally influenced by them.. For example,. Indai was higly liberal about sexuality until the days of the Raj, when Victrian morals were adopted byt the population, and nowadays Indian films cant even show kissing, let alone anything else.


*Kiss*



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True. Even arab societies were extremely liberal about sex, all kinds of sex, until of course Islam came into the mix. Lots of tribes in Africa were, to quote Kamuzu "literally naked" and had no qualms about all kinds of sexual practices till those damn missionaries came. Where the white folks came about their hatred or hypocrisy about sex that last till today is open to debate.


It has become the curse of mankind. It is changing 'though. But we need to get rid of religious hypocracy first. Because I think that is where the disfunction comes from.



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MISS THANG


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On the homosexuality issue. Why is it considered "ok" for gals to get it on but a no-no for guys? If i mention gays to anyone(gals and boys) they seem disgusted but mention lesbians and you can literaly see peoples eyes sparkle and light up.


How come back door "shagging" between a male and female is considered ok?


I see a beautiful gal walk past me and i would admire her the same way i see a guy i like the look of i would also admire. Does that make me homosexual?


Lateyl i've been very interested in same sex couplings(gals) but only cause i'm curious(yeah, i know curiosity killed the cat) so what does that make me? Don't get me wrong,i would choose the opp sex anyday but still......


And how about homosexuality in Africa esp malawi. How far spread do you think it is? I mean all those boarding schools. I actually think that you might have more homosexuals in Malawi than people actually realise but it's just that they keep it in the closet


And no i'm not Bi either



-- Edited by MISS THANG at 19:46, 2005-07-27

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Miss Thang "To educate a man is to educate an individual but to educate a woman is to educate a whole nation and people" MALCOM X
malawian


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For many years I believe, the world has been has been ruled by men and not women. What was good for men was also considered good for everybody regardless of their gender. Men therefore made decisions for everybody. Many males believe that lesbians in “action” are fun to watch than looking at 2 dudes doing it. Therefore many people opt for lesbians than gay guys because men decided.


I believe that outside factors and influences shape personality. I share the sociological point of view; homosexuality is learned. It is learned from surrounding factors like friends, media, parents etc. Every behavior is learned.  


I also want to shed light on the correlation between the increase of Western influence and the increase in same sex marriages and homosexuality. Malawi is in the process of “development”; development to match Western countries. This means that Malawians must also change their views on issues like homosexuality. Homosexuality was “unnatural”   to Malawians, but slowly it is being rampant and “natural” in boarding schools. Why? It’s because Malawians have learned from outside factors; the Western media, friends etc. This again emphasizes the point mentioned above: homosexuality usually happens because people learn it from the outside.  

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Sexual attraction is not a "learnt" response. Any third rate psychologist would tell you that.


And you'll be surprised how many homosexuals existed in Malawi prior to western "development" as you put it. It is the acceptability factor that is changing attitudes or more accurately, letting people get "out of the closet". The same applies to the west.


Homosexuality was criminal till the 60s in Britain and they wrote the Malawi constitution, before that it wasn't even considered in MW. It wasn't a crime, neither was it accepted, it was mainly ignored; but it did exists. In fact it always has, everywhere.


I once met a middle aged Malawian homosexual. I'm not mentioning any names of course, but he was a prominent figure in Lilongwe  (I think he's dead now). Anyway according to him, he had been practicing homosexuality since he was about 14 and he swears that there are hundreds of closet gays around; majority of whom (like himself) were married with kids and some whose wives were actually aware of it.


Needless to say it was a very intriguing story, but it made me aware of the power of denial.



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Lady B


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Malawian You see, human sexuality stems from our biological progression as we mature when we are young (as far back as to the womb). Most homosexuals will tell you that they have always felt natural having desires for a member of the same sex. This suggests that it could be a biological tie and not so much social, also given that homosexuals arise from a variety of social environments. From what we have learned so far in the ways of brain development, when they have scanned the brain of a heterosexual male and female, then scanned the brain of a homosexual male and female, the tests show that there is a slight difference in some of the brain structures and processing abilities between males and females. However, for homosexuals, they have seen evidence that the brains of a homosexual male resemble more of that of a females brain and vice versa for homosexual females, in that some of the brain structures resemble more of a heterosexual males brain.

Now, the flaw in this is that we are unable to scan the brain of a child to determine if they will be homosexual or not, simply because we do not know at this point (nor does the child know) that they are homosexual or heterosexual. So, this is then just a theory to show that sexual preference is biologically linked, although there are strong correlations that show that it very well could be. if you have noticed homosexual couples, there generally is a matter of role-playing (as in one is more masculine and one more feminine). This could be attributed to biology, given that perhaps the more "female" of the two's brain, resembles more of a woman's brain than the other. This then translates into their behaviour, where they feel more comfortable being the more feminine one in the relationship


i hope this makes sense  , if in doubt try to read the book :Why Men Don’t Listen and Women Can’t Read Maps: Alan and Barbara Pease. its a good book and will help you understand the whole gay and lesbian issues and maybe learn to undertand them and accept them as they are 


*Kiss* 



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malawian


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Sexual attraction can be learned. Everything can be learned. For example, if someone lived around gays and they make him believe in homosexuality as the only way to bring sexual pleasure; because of pressure he can join them. How do we know if this behavior is right and the other is wrong? You may say through morals, culture etc., but all of it is learned. At school a gay dude can convince his friends to “sleep” with him because there's nothing wrong with it. They can accept and like it. From this first act, his friends can "opt" to be gay in the future. Why? because somehow, they've learned about it from an outside factor who is the friend. (as a contributing factor)  


Some psychologists especially neo-freudians believe that humans pair stimulus that results in a certain response. If a man pairs sexual pleasure with his fellow man, then his response will be sexual excitement ONLY with a man. The pairing of these two can be learned or encouraged by outside factors like I mentioned before. 


 



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Lady B


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Malawian Absolutely you are right to say sexual attraction can be learned I was just giving an example of how the medical community would try and describe such behaviours.

There is no doubt in my mind that society has a large influence on the social roles of homosexual couples, just as it does on heterosexual couples. It is very rare that an individual is brought up in a household that is void of gender role assignment, and it is because of this that we grow up trying to adapt into that expectation that was placed upon us when we were younger. The question that then arises though, is how does this explain why one male will adopt the typically more masculine role, while another male will adopt the stereotyped feminine role of the relationship (if we are using a homosexual male couple as an example). I personally believe that this then goes back to personality and what each individual feels more comfortable with, which is a mixture of both nurture and nature, or socialization and biology.


*Kiss*



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There is a different between homosexuality as an act and homosexuality as a lifestyle choice. The lifestyle part is the learned response. The societal and cultural influenced part on homosexuality.


Sexual arousal that can lead to the act is an instinctual response to stimuli. No amount of living around gays (which I did a lot through university) can influence one on preference; or at least it shouldn't. It might make one curious as that is only human but not gay in the traditional sense.


Some men find out after years of heterosexual relations that they get more pleasure from same-sex relations than they do from heterosexual relations. They don't "learn" that, they discover that.


If you ever spoke to a gay person they'll tell you that they've always "known" that they were differently inclined. The undelying truth is that the definition is what makes the difference since sex is sex no matter who it is done with.



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malawian


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Lady B,


  I like your comment. You talked about ladylike personality in some gay guys. Well I'm not leaning much on the biological perspective in explaining this phenomenon because of these reasons: a) Most tests on homosexual behavior have been done in animals and as you know, they are very different from human beings, b) no one can fully understand chemical processes in the brain. Scientists can come up with a theory, but in a way, it can be faulty or it might apply to the only person used when testing. These reasons make me believe in social factors. Therefore female personality in males is caused by what they have learned, the interaction with the outside etc. For example a guy who has 10 sisters and no brothers, might mimic his sisters’ feminine behavior for the rest of his life. 


I have talked to gays at my university campus. Once I talked to one who told me his interesting story. At  three years old, he was adopted by a family having a "gay" dad. During his childhood he was constantly “lectured" on homosexuality and how normal it is. Well at 14 the fella started to interact with gay dudes and till now he's gay. This  I believe, was caused mainly by social factors.



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Well that brings me out my point that sex is sex and it is all normal. As you said that scientists can be wrong since their studies are limited to their subjects, well so is your observation from this gay guy you spoke to. It is exactly the same everywhere. Every gay person has a story to tell and it only shows that they are as "normal" as you and I. Subject to pain, hurt, heartbreak, love, jealousy etc.


I grew up with only girls in my family, in a single family house with only aunts and female cousins. It had the very opposite effect on me. Helped to exaggerate my masculinity on the other hand empathise with females too. It goes to show everyone turn out differently and genetics also have a part to play as much as society does.


It isn't true that studies on homosexuality are mostly done on animals. At the same time animals are not very different from humans.


I believe that in every human there exists a pig, a lion, an ass, and a nightingale and diversity of character is due to their unequal activity.



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Lady B


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well i agree like i said u ltimately, being a homosexual is either something that you are born with (which I  agree ) or you innocently acquire the behavior through a variety of social and psychological forces. Personally, I don’t believe that people decide to "turn" gay in the same way that they would change brands of dish washing liquid.


As I said, whatever makes people homosexual is too strong to just rub off on people. However, we may see that personality quirks associated with gay effeminate males (mostly because they appear to be fun) rubbing off on heterosexual people


my personal opinion is that we shouldnt have the ability to control the actions and beleifs of others,


*Kiss*



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jones_1


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if my memory serves me right,i remember some psychiatirst taught on different stages of development in an individual and what makes a person the way he/she is.


ofcourse there are several factors that play some role during development,but i was quite fascinated at how he explained why some are gay and not others...he mentioned something like during child development,there are different phases that one has to go through and get over them..theres also this stage called the 'anal' phase,this is whereby the child learns how to hold its stool and use the toilet...its is at this phase whereby the child is fascinated by this process of holding the stool..etc...and IF the child doesnt get over this fascination,he may well end up being gay!



 


 



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game


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whatever doctors or scientist say about why one is gay is only to defend and uphold the stupid and sickening practice of homosexuality.if you are gay you are gay there are parts of your brain that dont fanction accordingly, to me thats your only excuse, no woman born in a mans body bull.in our malawian culture gayism is not condoned and we have to live it like that call me a gay basher i will tell you am proud of it.if gays could fall pregnant without the use of needles through the testicles and  ovaries then i would stop hating them but they adopt and defy the  only way God placed before man as a way for reproduction to take place. which is two joint efforts between man and woman.

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Lady B


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Game  If every person in your family was a set race/color(green) and you had your own new sexual preference(bananas).
I would say, "Hi green people". open your mind and  discuss idea's, dont't try  force one's Dogma of persecution against homosexual's or any other creed, race, or interest on others.


yah in malawi we dont have them , but then again how do you know ?? you aint gay
But if you want to discuss things with out hating Fine, More than welcome. If you can make one post with out trying to hate somebody, or blaim somebody for something Id be suprised.

And even if we did discuss homosexuals, we would ask for better reasons than. "well every body knows that its just not right," Here we require damn near scientific evidence, not somebodys simple belife.


*Kiss*



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game


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lady b,scientific evidence my ass,i dont believe in anything that requires theory and experiment because you end up estimating stuff.if you try to drop an old coin and say its a thousand years old because of the noise it makes to me thats circumstantial there is no concrete evidence that the coin is a thousand years old.so to me scientific evidence is a load of bull.

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No one word brings out the most amount of hypocrisy as "sex". Moral hyprocrisy, religious hypocrisy, even science is not exempt from its own hypocrisy where sex is concerned. Only art is really true to form where sex is concerned as it deals with aesthetics; so does sex.


Boiled down, sex is a natural combination of physical and emotional pleasure and gratification. Higher than moral or cultural value. More important that scientific quantification or definition, and definitely higher than the church, or mosque or temple. It is an act so vast, so universal that all through history man has strived to explain it, to control it, to moralise it, and simply to do it.


And man would always find a way to do it. New ways to do it and reasons to do it. Because it is simply the most effective way of procreation hence our very survival as a species relies on it. On us doing it.


In short if we stopped having sex we would all be extinct in a century.


The very pleasure one derives from it promotes sanity and well-being. The greatest act one can have with another human being is SEX.


So all our moral posturing is really a waste of time. Whether you hate or accept homosexuals or like sado-masochism or you're a fetishist or a flasher or whatever does it for you, It's YOUR thing!


Look around you. The world is big enough for all of us, whatever you are, we all got to be here! We all deserve to be here. So long as we don't do no harm to nobody.



-- Edited by abre les ojos at 10:59, 2005-07-29

-- Edited by abre les ojos at 11:01, 2005-07-29

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Lady B


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Game I believe you to be ahead of your time for your statements above. I praise and respect people like you for having the ability to honestly express themselves; with or without fear of negative retribution you are couragous in that you went ahead an expressed yourself. You deserve to feel elated, and I hope you do, for I believe the greatest of all happiness' is felicity. We are all different, in many ways, ways in which most of us will never realize, especially those of us satisfied with the monotonous grind of what society hides behind as a 'normal' life. I am sick of seeing people as themselves only in times of great despair, why should one's life be good and filled with amenities if their just going to create impersonations, generalizations, prejudices - all in order to brainwash their own mind into believing that most of the people in their society as EXACTLY like them - and those that obviously aren't are either freaks of nature (unnatural), somehow mentally or physically malnourished, etc.

I've come to associate great happiness with seeing people cry, as strange as this may sound, especially in guys. With guys, because of the God rivalling egos we have one can be assured that when a guy cry's he is being himself however hard he is trying to cover it up. Everything else is tainted with social norm's, media coverage, personal self-defences ('walls' as I call them), childhood upbringing that hasn't been rationalized, etc.

People appear to have lost the ability to think for themselves, to feel what they feel, and to believe what they believe - all directly through themselves and not through tainted means.

What's your take?

*Kiss*


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