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Post Info TOPIC: reality check


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country men.


mine is a simple question,looking at the make poverty history issue which was the topic of discussion across the globe,do you think these ageing rockers efforts have been effective enough on our african continent?is africa ready to pave way for a free market,or has liberalization come too late for africa after the west has already advanced economically,do these people's views favour progress and economical reform for africa?and with mugabe about to visit malawi,do you think our country can benefit economically from zimbabwe with its current economic sanctions.



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YTP


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Somewhere somehow i think Africa should still have no democracy  as the pple are not ready for it and its still a case of being spoon-fed Nothing is being done to improve it.......if thereis, then its not working and whoever is benefitting from it is far from an african. Game, so that requires a no, no, no, no and NO!!!!  Whateva name is given to anything supposedly to improve africa, the opposite is achieved so whats the point?? Liberalization and free market or what they choose to bring ova is a load of crap which foolishly our leaders swallow with gusto.

-- Edited by YTP at 21:26, 2006-03-09

-- Edited by YTP at 21:28, 2006-03-09

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I've been drumming on about this issue for quite a long time and I remember on this very forum I got castigated for implying that the "Make Poverty History" was a load of white liberal guilty rubbish and won't really help in the long run.

As for liberalisation. The results speak for themselves. Have a look at China for instance. It doesn't really benefit the poor countries. Not one country has been able to bring themselves out of poverty by following free market policies.

As for Mugabe, well, I have no opinion on that...

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Does Zimbabwe (as a nation) have any sanctions imposed on it? I thought the only sanctions to do with Zimbabwe were targeted at specific individuals and not the Zimbabwean economy as a whole.

On the rockers; We shouldn't expect the heavens from them. They did their bit (& should b commended for it), but it will take a lot more than concerts & good PR to cure Africa.

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awmygawd wrote:


Does Zimbabwe (as a nation) have any sanctions imposed on it? I thought the only sanctions to do with Zimbabwe were targeted at specific individuals and not the Zimbabwean economy as a whole.


 


not at all,sanctons are often imposed on a country as a whole not to individuals,iran is a good example,or the HAMAS,the US government has isolated itself from the whole of palestine by telling it to pay back all what it owed them,whats happened with zimbabwe is the west have sabotaged the whole of its economy by cutting off trade because of its poor human rights record,my question is whats there for malawi?



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YTP wrote:

Liberalization and free market or what they choose to bring ova is a load of crap...



Free trade per se does not have to be as bad as you make it out to be.
Mismanaged free trade, etc (just like everything else) will always produce negative results and that's the real root of Africa's problems.

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YTP


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awmygawd wrote:


YTP wrote: Liberalization and free market or what they choose to bring ova is a load of crap... Free trade per se does not have to be as bad as you make it out to be. Mismanaged free trade, etc (just like everything else) will always produce negative results and that's the real root of Africa's problems.

As we ar on Mw, it's gonna take a whole load of work to bring that about successfully, hence Liberalization and free market and whateva they choose to bring  ( sugar coated) is a load of crap.

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awmygawd wrote:

Free trade per se does not have to be as bad as you make it out to be.
Mismanaged free trade, etc (just like everything else) will always produce negative results and that's the real root of Africa's problems.



Give us examples of it working and contributing to economic growth...

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They should have just left us as we were,roaming around  the bush instead of giving us a little taste of civilization and messing up our whole flow!



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guys


i think what is happening is the west opens companies in africa that exploit our natural resources but wont trade with any african companies who want their commodities sold on the other side of the atlantic,they trade with each other on african soil isolating africans from participating in this trade.yet they go about preaching free trade and make poverty history,no wonder iran accuse the west of double standards.



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YTP


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Karma Sutra wrote:


They should have just left us as we were,roaming around  the bush instead of giving us a little taste of civilization and messing up our whole flow!

YAP, LIKE THE INDIANS IN BRAZIL!!!!

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The EU,as you should know, is THE ultimate free trade zone. Poland & Ireland have gained tremendously from the absence of trade barriers in the EU. How often do you hear them complain about the burdens of EU membership? Compare that with France & Britain. Greece on the other hand is struggling big time despite its broad economic similarities with Poland & Ireland; why's that?

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Yes then we could eat each other and walk aruond topless!!!!!!!!!!!!

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awmygawd


i agree but dont you think big economies control free trade,in europe all countries want to trade with the UK,why is that,is it because it manipulates the buying power on the international market?thats why you have alot of eastern europeans working in england on minimum wage.do you ever wonder why china and india have the fastest growing economies right now.



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game wrote:

do you ever wonder why china and india have the fastest growing economies right now.



Planning. Good planning and not much else.

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awmygawd wrote:

The EU,as you should know, is THE ultimate free trade zone. Poland & Ireland have gained tremendously from the absence of trade barriers in the EU. How often do you hear them complain about the burdens of EU membership? Compare that with France & Britain. Greece on the other hand is struggling big time despite its broad economic similarities with Poland & Ireland; why's that?



Yes but you fail to see that the EU is free within itself. It has extreme protectionist policies when it comes to its trade outside. It's an Economic Zone, that's why it was created.

Simply put, the idea of free trade is an expansionist one. Western companies have grown so large that they need to expand to other countries where there is cheap labour and potential for growth. So they create policies through international organisations and political pressure for these countries to open up to "foreign investment". Without of course evaluating anything else other than "how would it benefit our companies".

It used to be that dictatorships were a stable form of government because the rulers were coerced with protection from America or the USSR and the decisions lied in one strong leader only. Since the collapse of the Soviet Union democracy is the excuse for intervention used to cloak economic expansion. But only because it is deemed as the best ideal for government. And western citeszens have been fed year of its propaganda - very clever propaganda I might add (like the America dream and all that crap).

Poland already had the industrial structures for free trade and industry to expand to - better than Greece. But the problem of course is now there has been an extreme brain drain from Poland - that had some of the most educated people in the world - Yes, for those in the UK your plumber might have a PhD in physics! For Poland it has been a short term, much needed fix.

As For Africa, it produces the highest yield per dollar of investment than anywhere in the world. Why? Well that is because we'll take anything they throw at us since our post-colonialists leaders are still lap dogs and are waiting that one day the white man might just do something to save us - I sense some religious undertones but that just might be my prejudice talking.

Free trade would never work in Africa. Never. We don't have the political structures or industrial acumen for it. If the World bank/IMF really cared they would provide money for LONG-TERM projects so that our local industry can expand and not force us to open up our systems to foreign companies that can just simply pack up and go when they see cheaper labour somewhere else and even syphon all the money back to the west.

Tell me HOW ON EARTH CAN YOU SAY THAT AFRICA BENEFITS FROM THAT. Unless you work for the world bank or run a multi-national.







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abre les ojos wrote:



Yes but you fail to see that the EU is free within itself. It has extreme protectionist policies when it comes to its trade outside. It's an Economic Zone, that's why it was created.


Exactly! Selective, well directed, well managed free trade. 


abre les ojos wrote:



... Free trade would never work in Africa. Never. We don't have the political structures or industrial acumen for it.





So the problem isn't free trade itself, it's our ability to manage it? If that's the case, I agree.


African leaders (political & business) need to learn how to play hard ball. The EU and US may be friends, but they still drag each other to court (ie the WTO) when one party doesn't play fair. And they don't just sit around waiting for cases to be resolved, in the meantime, they will retaliate and impose (targeted) sanctions on each other (yes that does happen, it just doesn't make the news as often as it should).


African businesses people have to learn the art of international lobbying. If they banded together and agreed on priorities and tactics they wouldn't have to suffer as badly. Countries like China have lawyers in every country that matters working to advance their interests. Businesses in the US aren't taking the Chinese/international threat lying down, they have also been active in resisting it through every political and legal channel imaginable (do you think the controversy generated by the P&O takeover is an accident?).


'Free trade' will not work if it is applied without understanding its intricacies. Adopting free trade wholesale with out crunching the numbers and understanding the consequences is not clever at all (i.e. that's just stupid). Free trade is not the solution to everything plus it comes with its own problems (can't deny that!) it must be handled delicately or it will blow up in your face, an experience Africa is all too aware of.



-- Edited by awmygawd at 11:36, 2006-03-10

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awmygawd wrote:


abre les ojos wrote: Yes but you fail to see that the EU is free within itself. It has extreme protectionist policies when it comes to its trade outside. It's an Economic Zone, that's why it was created. Exactly! Selective, well directed, well managed free trade.  abre les ojos wrote: ... 


i know of the theory that in order to be prosperous a country has to be big,-like the bigger the better.this seems quiet plausible.look what churchill called the pumpernickel principalities of German before bismarck;and then look at the Bismarckian Reich.now should we say the prosperity of German became possible because of this unification?and remember that there was no such thing as free trade then yet the German speaking swiss and the German speaking austrians who did not join,did just as well economically.


 



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Africa needs business alliances and the stamina to stand,and the only advantage with UK is that theey have grown big alreaady and their leaders are politically mature.We in African we like playing loney,selective in business distribution and too corruptive in discharging and controlling our congromerates.


We hate sound policies involved in expanding our base and most of our busuness tycoons are abit myopic hence we can not fit in liberisation and free trade.



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I think we might be missing the big picture. No country ever brought itself out of poverty by allowing free trade to be unconditionally applied to its economic principles. It isn't actually economically possible whatever the claim is, the facts tell differently.


To grow you have to create the economic/political structures for it within. You have to create a sytem of taxes, unemployment protection, production and consumption, export, alliances and tarrifs. Free trade in one fell swoop dissolves most of these because the power is taken from the central goverment and placed with the multi-nationals that have to money.


If Lever Brothers closes a factory in Malawi that employs 5000 people, the government is left to clean up the mess of those unemployed. Crime rises with inflation, there is less consumption and all other industries suffer. The IMF that initiated that same policy steps in to "bail out" by giving money and telling how to spend it by cutting government protection and public spending.


Now tell me awmygawd, how on earth can one say that free-trade in any poor country can every work. All the rich countries on earth have gotten there by doing the very opposite. The UK economy with its clout can stand to some extent a whole outflow of industry to say India where there is cheaper labour because the consumer is still here as long as they can sho in Harrods and can borrow thousands to fill the gaps they are okay for now.


It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that this system is bound to crumble at some point. The rise of China and India are going to change the dynamics of world trade forever. When China get's rich enough to be it's own chief consumer of its own goods and the prices of production rise, then what next for western consumers. Or if this Iran fiasco gets out of hand and Iran retalliates by cutting its oil supply....


I've always said it that this world of ours is always on a knife edge of conflicts just waiting to happen, mostly instigated by greed i.e. American greed. Whether it be free trade policies, globalization or so-called democracy...



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abre


long time ago a british government white paper on overseas development stated its aims on foreign aid by saying that it would do what lies in its power to help the developing countries to provide their people with the material opportunities for using their talents,so that this would help the people to live a full and happy life life and steadily improving their lot.and africa was the topic of concern but up to now i wonder if this task was ever executed seeing that africa hasnt changed at all.


the reason china is flourishing economically is because the people of china want to succeed,or its because of their willingness to succeed.there is a different form of a dual economy in which they refuse to create different patterns of living,which brings both the poor and the rich together and united  by a common way of life.the same with india,this is the kind of living which forces countries like america and britain to want to trade with them because the promise of success seems credible.if africa can adapt to this system give it ten years there is going to be change and corruption will be a thing of the past.



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