was'Tookie'worth saving?

guevara · Senior Member

was'Tookie'worth saving?

firstbendman · Senior Member

guevara wrote:

Min. Farrakhan with Stanley 'Tookie' Williams.[Editor’s note: The following two messages were delivered by Stanley “Tookie Williams” on June 19, 2005 was stanley'tookie'williams worth saving? what is the purpose of the american prison system?to rehabilitate or exterminate blackmen?

Yes. Next question.

guevara · Senior Member

yes what ?you twit!get a life!

game · Guru

guevara.

Tookie served his time and it was evident enough that he was reinvigorated but being black and former leader of the notorious gang didnt serve him any justice.it only shows how daft the terminator is.

ignore this twart dont answer him back,he is here to wage war thats what pricks from southbend do.

-- Edited by game at 21:34, 2005-12-13

firstbendman · Senior Member

game wrote:

ignore this twart dont answer him back,he is here to wage war thats what pricks from southbend do.-- Edited by game at 21:34, 2005-12-13

Let two blind men lead each other way.

skillzmanifest · Senior Member

Lets face it. The evidence was overwhelming, his defense was weak, and the govenor and the jury ultimately came to a decision. Though some of the witnesses that testified turned out to be fishy, him, being the leader of a nation-wide gang, and being charged with four murders , threw his argument right out of the bucket. The fact that he was black has very little to do with this case. He was proven quilty on all four charges. And in the state of california, the ulimate sentence for murder is the death penalty, in his case through lethal injection. Sure he turned his life around, wrote a few children's books and won the favour of people within the black community. But is that enough to free a person that has been proven guilty on four counts of murder before a court? Think of the message that will send to someone else who wants to kill. Imagine a court system that said,"its okay to murder, as long as you repent the next day" .The bigger issue here is not race, but redemption vs capital punishment.

MISS THANG · Senior Member

While i agree that it's wrong 4 any1 to kill any1. Maybe sometimes you need to hand down a harsh sentence so that maybe you can detare(sp) other people from doin the same thing. But then again it's still wrong for any human being to kill another human being.

How do those people who pull the switch or inject the lethal concortion feel after they've done it? That's what i want to know.

The guy spent more than 20 years in prison, wasn't that enough? Couldn't they keep him in prison for the rest of his life? An eye 4 an eye? In this day and age? I don't think it's right. Maybe it's time people got in touch with their spiritual sides.

rick · Senior Member

Fact is Stanley Williams was a murderer, Who took away four innocent lives, never confessed to his crimes or showed any remorse what so ever till his dying day.

lets not get caught up with all the media hype. He was no different from the guy from chiradzulu who used to cut womens private parts(correction they are different, the dude from chiradzulu did admit to his crimes, to me it makes him more of a man than tookie), they are all murderers.

-- Edited by rick at 15:59, 2005-12-15

-- Edited by rick at 16:01, 2005-12-15

abre les ojos · Guru

So what's your point? That it is right for the state to carry out executions as revenge or payback. What if they got it wrong? Because there have been thousands of documented cases about state executions that got it wrog and executed an innocent person.

Have you seen the sort of people who sit on juries in the US? Mostly uneducated Hicks. Racists too.

That' swhy most CIVILISED countries have abolished state executions. No matter hw horrible the conviction.

Lady B · Senior Member

abre Couldint have said it better maself

*Kiss*

skillzmanifest · Senior Member

I think asking whether capital punishment is right or wrong is besides the point. Realistically speaking, there is no "real" way of determining whether one is guilty or innocent of committing a crime. In any court system, be it the in the UK, US or Malawi, there are always possiblities of loop holes-flaws and mistrials. And Even though, such mistakes could cost someone their life, it is something the state invests in, and to a certain extent, trusts. The truth is only God knows, and is the ultimate judge.

But coming back to capital punishment. Its something I wouldn't support or be in favour of, on the grounds that Everybody's life is worth saving, even Tookie's. However, I still think, the death penalty is effective and works. It sends a strong message to those thinking about killing and those nation wide gangs who must be held accountable for the lives they take.

At the same, it would be wrong and irresponsible to suggest that those facing conviction are left at the mercy of uneducated jury.racists?what decade? Where did you get that from? There is no need for typecasting.

abre les ojos · Guru

... The death penalty works????

Let's examine th evidence... The US has the highest murder rate in the Western world and also the higest death penalty rate in the western world. Obviously it's not working there. If it did then crime would be going doen not up as it does in the US.

Argue all you can but crime is linked to social conditions i.e. poverty and it's relation to wealth. Hence there is more crime in poor areas of anywhere on earth. So it would always be poor, and in the case of the US black, people who would be overwhelmingly executed.

No need for typecasting? You are really quite ignorant of American history/culture. You need to wake up and see how much racism in ingrained in culture, language, attitude, politics, the media. If you don't then you are either too shallow to see it or too narrow-minded to accept it.

Race is still the single most defining factor for everything in America... From education upwards. That's a fact. The black folk there are NOT making it up...

skillzmanifest · Senior Member

It is quite evident that you don't know what you are talking about. Read about Tookie Williams and the crips gang that surfaced during the 1990's. His association with this gang was also what was held with great consideration among the decision makers during his trial. The crips is one of America's most notorious gangs and its members are responsible for the lives of many, including members from a rival gang called the bloods.Another thing you must understand is that these gangs are made up of people of different races ie latinos. So the courts were not even dealing with a "black" gang per se. Thanks to the tight law enforcement and court system, these criminals have been judged and punished accordingly. In the late 90's, cops cracked down on alot of crips-related activites. And the court proceedings that followed, had a great influence on the further survival of the gang. The effective system, as I put it, virtually put the crips to their demise. And with its leader, turned born again and still punished, does send a strong message.

I never said the death penalty alone, would stop crime. Obviously, crime is also linked to social conditions. But where you go wrong again is when you suggest that most of the people who are poor and commit crime in the US are black. You have to understand that whites are the majority. And whites make up the largest volume of the poor in the US as well as rich. you must avoid irresponsibly making general statements on issues concerning race.

There are blacks who have money, but a large percentage of the black population are not. On the lines of what you were trying to say, that is more accurate.

"Race is still the single most defining factor for everything in America... From education upwards. That's a fact."

what in the heck? once again, an another one of your obnoxious statements. The single most defining factor? And this time I want you to argue your point using the topic at hand.

abre les ojos · Guru

Maybe you ought to take sociology classes before you attempt to comment on stuff you are totally ignorant about.

About the penal system in the US. One has to wonder about a country that puts someone in bars for 25 or was it 26 years I forget which, only to execute them after they have been rehabilitated. That is true barbarism and only in the US can such a thing happen in the western world.

I knew about Tookie since the late 80s and I have follower the history of gangs in LA. Tookie was not the only person who "founded" the gang, he was one of them. And if you read the trascipts of his court case (I'll post the link) even YOU would see that they must have been clear miscarriages. I mean forget the fact that the victims were white but the motives were weak and apparently he was framed because the LAPD was keen on convicting him just to send a message to LA gangs.

But all that is irrelevant now. If crime is linked to social conditions then how on earth can executing poor folk solve it. Are you a moron or what? Or just right-wing.

skillzmanifest · Senior Member

Exagerated generalisations must be avoided. Never did I suggest that the death penalty was designed to execute only the poor. Crime is linked to the rich as well as the poor. A criminal can be anyone. The forces that drive someone into commiting a crime are far more complicated than money or the absence of it.
But, as I said before, the lethal injection is effective. killers or crips members who are thinking of killing, are now made aware of the possible consequences. Rather than them thinking, they'll easily be forgiven and assume they'll be given a second chance, they can reflect on tookie. Well atleast thats the gist of the message.

abre les ojos · Guru

America - The only Western country that still has the death penalty has the highest rate of crime. California hasone of the highest crime rates in the world. So clearly the detha penanlty isn't a deterent. Even after Tookie's execution, Crips still exist. Nothing's changed. You go out and ask any criminal whether the death penalty is a discourages them from commiting crimes, they'll laugh at you.

My suggestion is simple. Crime is linked to poverty. Obviously 90% of the people in any jail anywhere on earth (and the figure is highest in America) are poor. It isn't rocket science to draw a conclusion there is it. In the US where the poor are most likely to be black - their number are extremely high in ratio to the population. Remember is a lot of places in the US a black man is more likely to go to jail than college.

So what am I getting at? Well, politicians, right-wing nut-cases, George Bush, and people like you Skillz can rant about it all night and day but it is a fact that it doesn't work. The forces that compel people to commit crimes are a lot stronger than the fear of punishment. You can't CURE crime by killing the perpetuators. If that was so then LA would be crime-free. And Texas too...

Black Panther · Senior Member

The man commited a crime He killed a granny and grampy and there kids. If the penalty for that is death in his state so be it. The reason he has been on death row this long is in case of 'wrongful accusation cries', All I can say is that if he doesnt fill out his crime, ur sending the msg that u can do a columbine and just repent and u'll still have ur life, to some people they really dont mind jail - they get a hot meal, so jail would not be there punishment...they still have theri life. On another point .......Did I mention he commited the crime .... ? He also started one of the biggest gangs in LA...if he did not kill anyone directly he has killed 1,000 people , innnocent and guilty ones indirectly ..if he indeed repented and if he is religious, then his God will take care of that in his death.

abre les ojos · Guru

Then what is the use of prison then. Does that mean thatthe idea of "correctional facilities" is a useless one? And is it the state's right to "revenge" for a crime commited (because that's what it is).

Black Panther it seems the more you write the less liberal you seem to sound. Maybe you've been in DC too long.

So which is it then? Was he being punished for his crime of the fact that he co-founded a gang.

There's an article from this brilliant website that pretty much shows the European perspective. I love the fact that I live in Europe rather than your country

http://watchingamerica.com/lefigaro000073.shtml

skillzmanifest · Senior Member

Again, this habit of generalising things. You should refrain from viewing issues in black and white-right wing vs left wing. I take niether stances, I just tell it as it is. Hate it or love it, the United States of America will still be the center of the world tommorow as it was yesterday. This is where the sharks swim. Its not for the weak so you probably are better off in the UK.

you also need to check your facts.

In the US where the poor are most likely to be black ??

Numerically, there are more poor whites than poor blacks or poor Latinos. But then, numerically, there are far more whites in the total population, so it stands to reason.

As I've stressed time and time again, the Tookie story is a strong message to those crips members who are commiting crime. Harsh punishments do play a big role in preventing crime. Potential criminals are made aware of the possible consequences, as opposed to one who knows he'll be out of jail in a couple of months. This may not put an end to the crips, or knock the LA crime rates from the top just yet. But it will, and has reduced thier criminal activites. What you must understand is that there are parts of california that have served as a geographically strategic place for all sorts of illegal dealings. That is why capital punishment is put into practice at a much larger rate.

abre les ojos · Guru

Maybe you should pay attention before you type. There are more black poor in America than any other race. Yes and it is in respect to their population. There are also more black people in prison than any other race. If that isn't saying anything then I don't know what is.

Then again, the Crips haven't been been reduced have they? I don't know where you get your figures from.

The truth is capital punishment doesn't work. Far more poor people get executed than others. Ask any criminologist or third rate sociologist adn they'll tell you that the motivation for crime is far stronger than the threat of punishment - especially in the poorer communities where desperation breeds a "nothing to lose"attitude.

Maybe you need to aspire to one side of the argument to have a vague idea of what you're talking about.

The USA is the centre of the world - to Americans it is!

USA is not for the weak? Are you a moron or what? I've lived in America. Probably before you were a todler. I probably know - actually from your posts, I actually know more about America than you who live there. Or is it that you are just lack a wide knowledge - a typical symton of living in America.

Believe it or not - the rest of the world can do just fine without America. In fact it would thrive. America is the problem, not the solution!

skillzmanifest · Senior Member

And any certified criminologist knows that there are a combination of pressures that bring a person to that "nothing to loose" attitude, its not simply cause they're broke.

"I've lived in America" .
Its quite clear that you haven't lived in the US, cause even a staunch liberal is aware of how effective the justice mechanism is. And is aware of the impact US foriegn policy and culture has on rest of the world. It is indeed the center. It is also a place where the innovative thrive over the competition and raise the game to new hieghts.

you can ramble on about issues that are not related to the topic, but the death penalty is and has played a big part in crime prevention. The crips have been reduced, especially when you consider how notorious they were in the early 70's to mid 90's. When people were actually afraid to walk in certain nieghborhoods wearing the color red or cap worn in a particular kind of way. Now you hear about gang members and leaders turning their lives around.

-- Edited by skillzmanifest at 10:51, 2005-12-23

abre les ojos · Guru

Contrary to most of my principles I will resist the trempation to give you the benefit of the doubt simply becaseu you are one of those people who are prone to credulity as evident from your replies.

However I must stress one thing. That the death penalty is NOT the reason for the reduction of gangs - in LA or anywhere else.The answers are found mostly in the economy. When things get better, more social investment, better schools, social security etc, crime reduces.

Of course it is a matter of discourse as a lot of Americans still believe the political rhetoric of punishment as opposed to rehablilitation (I know, I work for the Department of Social Services). But the figures from statistics contradict. Of course no one reports that because it doesn't make good news for tough-talking right wing politicians - and the US is hardly what you'll call a liberal country.