WHATS YOUR TAKE (oops i posted this on the politics forum my bad )

Lady B · Senior Member

WHATS YOUR TAKE (oops i posted this on the politics forum my bad )

abre les ojos · Guru

It comes down to religious moral instruction. Whereby the school of thought decided was to make "sin" out of nudity and sex. Now, I don't know where the eveolutionary advantage of that arose from but I can damn well tell why the religious establishment would have been suspect about sexual practice. Even till now it is.

Someone once said that it is a conspiracy by the clothing industry to make nudity shameful so that clothing becomes subsequently a need to cover up shame. But I think it's just a matter of comfort (you won't want your bits exposed to the elements would you)?

It has reached the state that we "fear" nudity. It is even a moral issue to go "natural" which is the very state of birth. On the christian front I'm not aware of anywhere in the bible where it's a sin to be nude except after Adam & Eve's damnation (when they become aware of their nudity).

This is a topic that is pretty hard to explain.

Personally, I love nudity. I'm constantly challenging myself to do away with those primitive notions of modesty. I mean, how can a naked person be so damaging to society. How can seeing a penis or vagina screw one up (if you forgive the ridiculous pun)?

Lady B · Senior Member

Yea I'm aware that religion played a role in the creation of these sort of behaivors but that doesn't really answer the question why. There's some merit in certain concepts its just a matter of how much is actually practical and beneficial. Most of the 7 deadly sins are annoying qualities for people to have it's just that we all have them and they're hard to hide. You could argue that it's wrong and unatural to pretend you're not those things but in order to live in some sort of society you need to keep some **** to yourself. 1-5 of the ten commandments are basically religious the rest have value though.

*Kiss*

abre les ojos · Guru

With the ten comandments only the one about killing makes sense. That doesn't stop the idea of killing for survival. So honestly, morality is really rubbish. It has a purpose of course. But not the monopoly on behaviour. I would say that the codes behind morality are put in place to protect society (in theory) but as a cynic loke me would tell you they are just there for the bourgeoisie to exercise control over the masses.

Most codes of morality serve no purpose except that. Especialy to do with sexual practice. I mean how can a priest; who is celebate have the authority to tell me about sex and stuff?

Man has acquired the innert desire to exercise power and expolit man. Everything about society is geared towards that.. From religion downwards..

Lady B · Senior Member

Abre am looking for something more specific. They think they have to yes but why? There are meritable reasons for most things that are created. Its time that blurs the reasons for creation and transforms them into what everyone hates.

Plus there are the social aspects of why people think they should change things. For example curses... people shouldn't really be offended by curses because they're just words and sounds with a rude connotation but only when used in specific contexts. Most people though will say they're rude in any context as well as unprofessional and immature. The point is people are offended by it despite the fact that it's not the right situation to be offended by it because the act of cursing has a negative connotation to it. Are there negatives to sex related situations outside of the obvious illegal ones? I'd say yes and they're mostly social. I'm trying to discover the negative social aspects of sex related topics if there are any.

Is there a justifiable reason for keeping sex and its sub topics private? It's a broad topic and I was hoping for a little more than "religion has corrupted your mind again!"

dont forget that Religion is not an inherent thing. You're not born literally believing in a faith.

And faith can be embraced or denounced!

*Kiss*

abre les ojos · Guru

OK OK give me till tomorrow to reflect on this topic and I'll generate enough knowledge to reply constructively..

MISS THANG · Senior Member

Lady B

Don't you think the reason might just be something as simple as privacy/intimacy. After all sex is between two people right? And it is done in the privacy of one's home right?

I think religion has nothin to do with it coz there are refferences about it all over the bible.

Tboz · Newbie

(Miss Thang in reference to your entry)That is not necessarily true, sex is no longer between 2 people, there are 3somes, group sex and more, and not always done in the privacy or in ones home. there are lots of places, in the car, in the elevator, at the park, in someone's home, in public all kinds of places, in the bathrooms even in the kitchen, not forgetting the hotels. in other words, in don't really matter where and it can involve more than 2 people. oohhh on the roof top all kinds of places.

talking about religion what about Napuse napuse? are your answers including or considering that religion? from what I heard it encourages group sex and it is done in the church. wordddd!!.

-- Edited by Tboz at 05:01, 2005-08-03

MISS THANG · Senior Member

T-boz

Ma point was that religion has nothing to do with why sex is a taboo. As to Napuse Napuse does it actually exist? I've heard the churc mentioned a few times but i've never actually met anyone who has actually been to this church.As far as i'm concerned it's a myth. You give me concrete proof i might change my mind.

On your other point about sex being done anywhere and with as many people as you want, again a lot of talk esp by Malawiana coz i don't believe that a lot of us have actually done these so called threesomes coz lets face it, how many Malawians would actually share their partners with anyone else or even get naked with other people around them? People have been married for years and they still aint seen their spouses naked i doubt they even know what they themselves look like(no insult intended).

Your point may be true with other races but malawians? I don't FINK so.

So i stand by my point, it's just betweeen the two and it's private and intimate therefore it becomes a taboo outside of that twosome. Whether it's talking about it or touching "them" as Lady B put it.

amdala · Senior Member

'nakedness'. it began a long time ago. if we have to be religious, then i would say it contributes 90% to the shameness we feel when naked. the book (bible) states that when man was created he was naked and not ashamed. after munching the fruit of wisdom he 'realised' that he was 'naked' and he covered himself with leaves. this was the genesis of that feeling, the shameness around nakedness.

the old day people used to have no clothes but they would cover their genitalia with skins.

hey i just cant imagine a world without clothes! kulowa mubasi basi kungamakhale sightseeing yovutatu. kaya!

abre les ojos · Guru

Contrary to my earlier post there is a evolutionary advantage to covering nakedness.

As man evolved to a less hairy ape obviously clothes were needed to provide warmth, especially in the colder climates. The realisation of "nudity" and its consequent connection with shame probably came as a result of a more complex social awareness that included hierachy of individuals, and yes privacy. The religious aspect was to come later when a more dogmatic approach to social structure came in to place.

All this has been going on for millions of years and has gone through several phases, including our present industrial, "modern" or capitalist systems whereby clothes are seen as indicative of wealth or status.

It is important to stress that nudity and sex are not the same thing and the combination of both is quite recent and has to do with the advent of pornography and consequently anti-pornography.. Ancient paintings had nudes almost obligatory and they were not considered abscene at all, not till the advent of a religious morality movement to counteract what they saw as a moral lapse.

A lot of Scandanavia don't have such a problem with nudity as, say the Birtish or Americans or even Africans. The French love their nudity... I love nudity too (seeing that my girlfriend is french)

Lady B · Senior Member

Abre not all religions see sex as taboo. For example, in Hinduism sex is celebrated and from whence you have the karma sutra.

But in the biblical narrative of the creation, man and woman were naked at the beginning, which I suppose, is like the way animals are naked today, and have no sense of shame about it, even to copulate in "public".

It was only after Adam and Eve have eaten of the fruit of the "tree of knowledge of good and evil", ie only after they have attained knowledge of good and evil, were their "eyes opened" and then realised that they were naked, and felt shame, and covered themselves up.

Now if this narrative is true, then we, unlike animals, have a natural sense of shame when we see others' nakedness or when our nakedness is exposed before others. And this sense of shame is somehow derived from our knowledge of good and evil.

Perhaps we are ashamed because, now knowing evil, we immediately abused the sexual pleasures suggested by our "sexy parts", such as desiring sex for sex sake, rather than sex being enjoyed as part of and the expression of the ecstacy arising from the love and oneness with another.

But I am not entirely sure why we feel ashamed about nakedness

*Kiss*

Lady B · Senior Member

Miss Thang Private, meaning? Not to be discussed? To be acted only behind closed doors? Or what?

In any case even if there is no law against public nudity and "indecent acts" I think only a handful with exhibitionistic fetishes will exploit it. The majority will still have sex behind closed doors.

*Kiss*

Lady B · Senior Member

T Boz each tribe (i.e. religion/state/whatever) makes its own set of taboos, most of which are obviously arbitrary under serious scruteny, to create a difference between another tribe's set of taboos. So now each tribe has impressed in each of its members a distinct "us vs. them" mentality that prevents tribes from freely interacting because of the clashing taboos
So we see how taboos serve two distinct perposes that have been very important factors in human history.

*Kiss*

abre les ojos · Guru

Oh c'mon LadyB. Why do you, inspite of all the evidence still treat the biblical Adam and Eve fairytale as an "if". Only little children should even contemplate that that myth has any relation to the real world.

Whew, got that off my chest.

Sex, being the dynamics behind reproduction is open to control by the forces that be. It is the opposite of killing which is always been a monopoly of the powerful. Control sexual activity and you control the mind and society in general. Knowing the drive that comes with sex it isn't surprising that it can generate fear, ignorance, shame and confusion. Any third-rate freudian can explain that.

But to theorise this topic is to miss the point. Every society, community etc has created its norms and values around sex and as they intermingle and migrate the interfusion of these norms create several hybrids of it. Hinduism did glorify sex but when the victorians came along they brought their primitive morals and the result has been counter-productive. Shame...

Lady B · Senior Member

Pedagogy or conditioning merely begs the question, ie why do we teach what we teach, and why do cultures or societies evolved to condition its members for certain sexual attitudes and values, etc. If we are merely biological then why modesty, decency and shame never evolved in the other species except humans

*Kiss*

abre les ojos · Guru

As aan answer to your question. There is no adequate answer. I guess, like all human activity, it comes out of the need to compartmentalise it. like I said earlier, sex is so powerful a drive that the need to curtail it is deemed important by the powers that control society; government, church etc.

Why? There is no "why", perhaps. There is a "how" 'though. The question is the same of why is there life? No one knows. Except of course religious folk, who have figured it all out.